"mr_gofast" (jake_berenshteyn)
06/24/2014 at 11:11 • Filed to: TOYABURU TWINS
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"mr_gofast" (jake_berenshteyn)
06/24/2014 at 11:11 • Filed to: TOYABURU TWINS | 3
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http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1092880_s…
AllThingsBeige has announced it will possibly(probably) be dropping Subaru as its partner for the next gen GT86, however its not for certain. BMW has however been outed as one of the possible replacements. What do you think Oppo?
Subaru or BMW for the next gen GT86/Supra??
Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
> mr_gofast
06/24/2014 at 11:16 |
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Just saw this on the FP too. The way I look at it, that means my Subaru powered/built FR-S I will be picking up on Thursday is just going to become even more desirable! ;)
Party-vi
> mr_gofast
06/24/2014 at 11:16 |
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BMW. Subaru has no business making a RWD sports car, and Toyota has been huffing too many beige fumes to remember how to do it properly themselves.
Granted with BMW literally everything will be an optional extra and the BMW version will cost $8k more but people will buy it anyway because of the roundel.
PS9
> mr_gofast
06/24/2014 at 11:19 |
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Need a salt-mine full of salt to go with this article. "Anonymous sources" or "Unconfirmed reports" are almost always synonymous with "Bullshit the writer is making up to sell mags/get clicks."
Also, the next 86 and the Supra (if we get one, since it's been rumored to be coming forever) will not be related. It will be more like this + some fancy electronics, turbos and + about $30k.
Santiago of Escuderia Boricua
> Party-vi
06/24/2014 at 11:19 |
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The 86 is a unicorn. I don't think there will be another car this unique in a while.
RazoE
> mr_gofast
06/24/2014 at 11:24 |
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What'll it be called? BMW Z6?
Actually, that has a nice ring to it..
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mr_gofast
> PS9
06/24/2014 at 11:27 |
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reuters is fairly reliable, not so sure this report ought to be construed as BS
Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
> mr_gofast
06/24/2014 at 11:34 |
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BMW has a line-up of roughly 237 distinct models. 238 is too much.
48 Spoons
> mr_gofast
06/24/2014 at 11:38 |
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I highly doubt it. Its probably going to be the supra successor. A more real version of this:
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Party-vi
> Santiago of Escuderia Boricua
06/24/2014 at 11:51 |
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What do you mean, how it was built?
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Santiago of Escuderia Boricua
> Party-vi
06/24/2014 at 11:57 |
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A small 4 seat RWD sports car with an N/A flat 4
BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
> mr_gofast
06/24/2014 at 12:02 |
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This pisses me RIGHT OFF.
Toyota is using Subaru up, and discarding them for a 'better' deal.
BMW has been rumored for partnership for a while now... and I don't exactly get what Toyota and BMW each receive from such a deal, with BMW and Lexus being direct competitors, not really allies.
Subaru had an opportunity to build a new AWD sport coupe, but Toyota tapped that segment for a RWD under-powered car, and now refuses to upgrade the car with FA20DIT turbo, or EZ-based flat-6 engines under the hood to really make it competitive, after the initial hype wore off.
Subaru dealers, and Subaru enthusiasts like me, were asking for an AWD sport coupe, to keep with Subaru's AWD segment leadership... but Subaru felt that they needed to get some slight credit for the FT-86 project, by putting forward their re-badge version of the car, so not to be completely left-out of the revenue stream.... but now after the hype has died down, so have the sales.
BRZ is not more compelling than 370Z, Mustang, or Genesis Coupe as a RWD coupe, other than light-weight... but it doesn't capitalize on light weight by having a superior power to weight ratio.
It doesn't gain lifestyle buyers... and still leaves that to Miata with it's drop-top... FT-86 convertible is a no-go, and they won't even offer a sun-roof, let alone a targa top or something.
So now, toyota wants to jump into bed with BMW, a competitor, and leave Subaru, a partially-owned subsidiary behind... having spent all that R&D money, and dedicated some of their limited production capacity to building Toyota's RWD coupe that Toyota didn't have the platform to use for themselves, for having cancelled them all in the 1990s.
Subaru has now lost most of a decade of time in R&D, ramp-up, and production for a RWD car that doesn't fit them well, doesn't present a superior performance advantage, and now they would have to start over, and build the AWD turbocharged sport coupe, that they should have been developing and should now be on sale, instead of the BRZ.
Not only did Toyota dictate the terms, they dictated the styling... and it isn't the best looking affordable coupe on the market, either.
FT-86 development arguably delayed, and possibly diluted the development of the 2015 WRX... which should in NO WAY have taken three years after the introduction of the 2012 Impreza... considering how similar to it that WRX still is.
Maybe with all of that time and R&D money, Subaru could have actually put out a turbocharged, real-AWD, 3-door coupe, and 5-door hot hatch WRX that actually might look good, as well as being technically compelling, and practically versatile, and all-weather superior. BRZ is none of those things.
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mr_gofast
> BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
06/24/2014 at 12:06 |
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so could of subaru done it alone though? toyota did help defray some of the costs..
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Party-vi
> Santiago of Escuderia Boricua
06/24/2014 at 12:10 |
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Unique isn't always good. It's a neat idea, but was apparently lackluster in execution. Plus, Prius tires, really?
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Santiago of Escuderia Boricua
> Party-vi
06/24/2014 at 12:21 |
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They actually have decent grip. It isn't trying to be the fastest, just the most fun to drive
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BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
> mr_gofast
06/24/2014 at 12:23 |
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Most of those costs were chassis re-development to chop up the GR Impreza chassis into a rear-drive-only chassis with the engine moved aft ward, directly between the front suspension struts, and adapting the front suspension due to that engine move, and re-developing the rear driveline to handle 100% of the torque output. Suspension fine tuning was likely a small amount of the chassis-restructuring work.
If Subaru had STUCK to AWD, none of that chassis re-development would have been required. 2015 WRX still has the layout of AWD subarus before it, with handling and structural evolutionary developments of it's own that probably cost significantly less than FT-86's chassis development.
Toyota would not have had to pay for R&D that would not have been necessary at all to do.
Subaru could have developed the WRX chassis more quickly than the 3 years between the development of the 2012 Impreza, and the 2015 WRX... and putting a coupe body shell on that chassis platform is a very inexpensive thing in comparison to developing a RWD-only chassis, suspension, and drivetrain.
Subaru used to offer THREE body styles of the Impreza-family lineup... coupe, sedan, and 5-door hatchback/small wagon. Now just one WRX body style, and arguably less versatile than a 5-door, and certainly less attractive than a well-designed fastback coupe.
The costs would have been much lower, and the R&D would have been quicker, and we would already have an affordable real-AWD sport coupe on the market... which DOESN'T CURRENTLY EXIST.
Many coupes from the 1990s coupe-extinction have come back, but not one AWD coupe has. Eclipse GS-T, Talon TSi, Subaru 2.5RS (or it's overseas WRX coupe variant), are still absent.
Not everybody in the snow belt wants to risk a high-powered mustang, camaro, or challenger in the winter as a daily driver that has to get them to work, rather than strand them in a ditch with un-controllable oversteer on a slick surface. Subaru AWD is a proven champion in those sorts of conditions, but in no way competes with the aesthetics and appeal of a sport coupe type performance car.
ArmadaExpress drives a turbo outback
> mr_gofast
06/24/2014 at 12:23 |
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If Subaru is dropped, I wonder if that means they'll do their own version of the current BRZ that's more Subaru-esque? AWD, Turbo, and whatnot. I always felt that the parternship with Toyota was what was limiting them more than just feasibility studies and whatever other excuses they gave.
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BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
> 48 Spoons
06/24/2014 at 12:27 |
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No... they are talking about doing BOTH... first the higher-end Supra-esque car, then a budget, smaller variant, that would take GT 86's place. Who knows if Scion will even last that long, as a brand.... and Subaru would be out in the cold, left to their own... and starting from square one, which is where Subaru should have been a decade ago or more, not now, or further years from now.